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Just Another School Shooting...This One In Florida

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Author Topic: Just Another School Shooting...This One In Florida  (Read 451 times)
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steelydan
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« on: February 16, 2018, 11:47:07 am »

John Lott believes that violent crime rates go down when States pass "shall issue" concealed carry laws. He believes that "More Guns, Less Crime". I don't... The United States has lost track of hundreds of thousands of guns in Iraq and Afghanistan that are now being bought and sold on the black market. (and given away). I'm suggesting that a significant number of them are now being used and possibly in areas beyond those two countries. If we can't keep track of the guns our country has sold and given away to other people in other countries how will we ever do it here? If people believe that you have the "right" to bear arms then don't people also have the right to be free of them? Honestly, I don't think most politicians and law enforcement want to "take guns away" (at least from non criminals). I believe we need to have accountability and common sense in order to come to common ground. Both of those things seem to be in short supply these days...
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 01:30:25 pm »

Quote
"More Guns, Less Crime"
I'd simply comeback at John Lott with "More Mental Health Care + MANY More Jobs, Less Crime"
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 02:44:34 pm »

 thumbs up
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 10:44:36 pm »

Mr. Trump says we need to put more attention to mental health. You first, Mr. President, you first!

Meanwhile, Oregon and Florida (yes, Rick Scott's Florida) made changes to their gun laws. The changes are small, but it's a start. 90% of Americans, including 52% of gun owners, back tighter gun laws. The fear of facing down the mighty NRA is fading. There is (some) whiff of change in the wind.

The bank with the NRA-marked credit cards is cutting ties with the NRA. So are hotels and a car rental company.
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2018, 03:24:40 pm »

The list of companies kicking the NRA to the curb is growing!

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/23/1744195/-Here-are-the-companies-breaking-up-with-the-NRA-and-ones-that-need-more-encouragement?detail=emaildkre
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2018, 05:12:27 pm »

Yep, there are a lot of poorly made weapons out there in the US that are actually dangerous to the person trying to use them.  We should do everybody a favor, & get these cheap accidents-waiting-to-happen off the streets altogether.

Of the remaining weapons, I think we should not allow the sale nor legal ownership of semi-automatic rifles that are just semi-auto copies of military select-fire rifles.  & I'd also like to ban the civilian sale of .223 rounds - they're too high-velocity & inflict massive wounds when they hit a person.  While we're @ it, ban the civilian sale of any round that matches (or approximates) the ballistic profile of the .223. 

Then we could all sleep a little bit easier.

 
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2018, 11:35:21 pm »

When Trump spouts his idea of arming teachers, I doubt he's talked to a lot of law enforcement people, about it.  I believe they would tell him that there are several major problems with the idea.

First, anyone who's familiar with shooting a pistol, knows that the average weapon is good only for a  limited range -- for most people, it's less than 25 feet.  An experienced officer would also tell him that there's a world of difference between hitting a target on a range, with no stress, and hitting a person who's shooting back, under a tremendous amount of stress.  Just remember -- any shot that misses the intended target, is going to hit an unintended one.

Second, when a police officer, responding to an active shooter situation, comes through a door, he'll have no way of knowing which person, with a gun, is friend or foe.  His training is going to tell him that if he sees someone else with a gun, to shoot him.  He knows that taking the time to determine who the person is, could be fatal.

Then, consider the chaos in an active shooter situation.  Now, add more people into the situation, firing guns.  Odds are, the result would be more victims, some of them hit by "friendly fire".

Most law enforcement officials I've heard from, don't want more people, with more guns, "dirtying up" an already chaotic situation.  The last thing they need, is to walk into the middle of the "shoot-out at the OK corral", not knowing who are the Earps, and who are the Clantons.
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 07:53:04 am »

A few more thoughts... Most law enforcement that I know believe there is a war on Cops. And their willing to fight it. Their silent voice on the idea of "More Guns" is deafening... Misinformation on the very idea of "More Guns, Less Crime" is also at the heart of the problem. Not just the mentally ill. More Guns didn't help us in Iraq and Afghanistan and Ronald Reagan was surrounded by Secret Service agents who were carrying guns. Maybe some people today think that armed Math teachers would have been able to help. My thinking is that More Guns means that there will be More People willing to use them.
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2018, 09:18:50 am »

I've also noticed the "...silent voice on the idea of "More Guns"".  About the only "cop" (I use the word loosely, here) I've heard, supporting the arming of teachers, is former Milwaukee sheriff Clarke, who will parrot anything Trump says.

As for the subject of "mentally ill" people being barred from gun purchases, I generally agree, but with one caveat -- who determines who is "mentally ill"?    I, myself, have received counseling, in the past.  But, I don't think I should be considered "mentally ill".  How many veterans are out there (the guys Trump wants to arm, and put in our schools), who have been counseled and treated for PTSD?   How do they plan to get treatment records, that are protected by doctor/patient confidentially?  Does it include every person who is convicted of any type of violent domestic abuse (it should)?  I want to see answers to these, and more, questions, before we start declaring half of our population as mental cases.
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 03:43:14 pm »

Except for the few who were committed to clinics by courts, all therapy records are protected by HIPAA. For nearly everybody, it is legally impossible for background checkers to find out who's mentally ill and who isn't. That's the big flaw in the concept of denying guns to the crazy.
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 05:34:09 pm »

I think we could be talking about folks like all of the people Ronny Raygun booted out of the mental health facilities, back in the 80's.
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 04:00:48 pm »

The kicking out resulted from a court decision, not really Ronnie's call. Where he dropped the ball was in making no effort to help the newly homeless former patients. The practice up until then was to simply sedate and warehouse (imprison?) patients they didn't know how to help, without their consent. The court said if the state can't help the illness, they had no right to keep them.
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2018, 04:04:40 pm »

Anyway, it's unlikely that any of today's mass killers were among that group, back in the 80s.
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