Some Thoughts About Gun Violence

[countryguy]

Let me start this off, by saying I'm not anti-gun.  I have two of my own.  I love shooting (at unlive targets).  I spent nearly 15 years in the National Guard, shooting everything from a pistol, to machine guns, to a 105mm (app. 4") cannon.

That said, I also know that something has to be done, about the epidemic of gun violence we've all seen, in this country.  In no other country, in the world, is it getting almost commonplace, for someone to massacre our children, in the schools.  "Mass killing" is becoming part of our normal jargon.  No other industrialized country in the world, has 1/10 the number of gun deaths, per capita, that the U.S. does.

And, we seem to be completely helpless to do anything about it (except offer thoughts and prayers, that is).

I've got news, for you -- thoughts and prayers aren't doing just a hell of a lot of good.  If anything proves the ineffectiveness of the religious idea that, if you pray to God (or Jehovah, or Allah, or whomever), your prayers will be answered, the epidemic of gun violence in our country does.  I know, I know -- "He works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform."  Maybe someone who really believes that crap, can tell me what kind of a wonder he's working on, when a bunch of kids are slaughtered.

So -- if "... thoughts and prayers" aren't the answer ........... what is?

Well, first we have to ferret out the root of the problem.  What's causing this?  Is it the "gun culture" in this country?  Is it a culture of violence?  Is it (as is becoming the "answer of the day", from NRA-funded Republicans) solely a mental health issue?  Let's address that last one, first.

I can't disagree that someone who takes an assault rifle (or any other gun, for that matter), and shoots up a school full of defenseless kids, has something very, very wrong with him.  But, is that the only contributing factor?  Just that he's a wacko?  If that's so, compared to the rest of the world, apparently the U.S. is one giant insane asylum -- a giant funny farm.  Something - somehow - is channeling that mental imbalance in such a way as to cause these atrocities.

There always used to be a discussion in psychological circles (maybe there still is), about the differing affects of "nature vs. nurture".  "Nature, as the name indicates, involves natural, inborn tendencies in our mental and emotional make-up.  "Nurture", on the other hand, refers to learned aspects of mental and emotional make-up.

So, let's start with the "nature" part.  Is there some reason that Americans are at least 10 times as likely to be born mentally imbalanced, than anyone else, in the world?  Is it something in our water?  Something in our diet?  Something in the air?  The simple answer, is "No".  We're not, for some reason, born more violent than anyone else.  That leaves us with one other answer - "nurture".  Something, in our culture, is teaching us to be more violent than others.  What could it be?  How do we change it?

This diatribe is about long enuf, already, so I'm going to leave it there, for now (my wife is hollering something about a grandson's birthday party we're supposed to go to).  Just think about that question, and I'll be back, later, with my thoughts.

[countryguy]

The U.S. was born violently.  Even before the Revolution, every colony had militias to protect themselves in the fights that were common, between themselves and the native peoples.  The militias that fired "the shot heard 'round the world", at Lexington and Concord, had been formed long before the Continental Congress issued the Declaration of Independence.

And, the violence never, really, stopped from that time, on.  Indian Wars.  The War of 12812.  The Mexican War.  The Civil War.  Indian Wars, again.  "The wild west".  Et Cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Most people can name several famous "outlaws", without having to stop to think, at all --Billy the Kid, Bonnie and Clyde, Al Capone, Jesse James, Dillinger, and on and on.  But, when asked to name 3 famous lawmen, they run into trouble.  Maybe Wyatt Earp, and Elliott Ness.  But the fact is, most of our folk heroes were violent criminals.  Most of what many of us watched, when we were growing up, were shoot-'em-up westerns. 

Along with that, Americans have a fierce sense of independence - not just as a country, but as individuals, as well.  So much so, that many, if not most, Americans feel justified using violence to maintain it.  I'm not suggesting such a sense of individual independence is at all wrong -- just that, maybe, we have a habit of resorting to violence somewhat quicker than most.  Just look at the "road rage", that's become so common, in the last decade, or so.  Or the sports fans who destroy their own communities, "celebrating" their favorite team's championship.  Observe the violence stemming from our political races and events, or even at rallies promoting non violence.  We fight about anything and everything, it seems.

Now, with all of the violent aspects of our culture --- add in easy access to some of the most modern and state-of-the-art weapons of war.  I know, I know -- The NRA tells us that, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".  And, they're right.  What they don't want to recognize, though, is how easily guns make it possible to kill a lot of people.  I understand that there are sporting firearms, out there, that are semi-automatic.  But, ask yourself -- why doesn't the military just use those guns?  The answer is quite simple -- because you can't kill as many people, in a short amount of time, as you can with an AR-15, or similar "assault rifle".  They were developed for one, single purpose -- to kill a lot of people, in a hurry.  There's no legitimate need for civilians to have them.

I've also heard the argument about, "Cars kill more people than guns -- should we ban cars, too?"  No.  There's a difference.  Cars have a legitimate civilian purpose.  Assault weapons don't.  Assault weapons are designed, and made, for one, and only one purpose -- to kill people.

Which, as we've seen in way too many recent tragedies, they do quite well.

[steelydan]

I'm thinking a lot of those people are praying that no more lives get thrown away after it's too late.  Do you think it would give the politicians a different perspective if say one of Trumps children would have been killed when they were in school? Or Reagan's? Or Ted Nugents? Or Wayne La Pierre' s? We are not completely helpless to do anything about it. Pearl Jam as well as Coach Steve Kerr of the Golden State Warriors have spoken out about this very notion. One thing we can do is stop voting for political candidates that promote the NRA and other propaganda like "they are going to take our guns away" when all we're asking for is more safety, responsibility and accountability. The NRA and the Insurance industry helped destroy Hillary Clinton. SOMEBODY has to take a stand and start doing the right thing. It will have to start with our votes because the Republican Party will do nothing but continue to spread hate through propaganda which will never help with the current problem. VOTE, Stop voting Republican (and any lockstep Dems), then change some of the laws. Unless this is done I don't see anything happening anytime soon because using the Republicans argument "enforce the current laws" isn't working.

[A159]

So, let's start with the "nature" part.  Is there some reason that Americans are at least 10 times as likely to be born mentally imbalanced, than anyone else, in the world?  Is it something in our water?  Something in our diet?  Something in the air?  The simple answer, is "No".  We're not, for some reason, born more violent than anyone else.  That leaves us with one other answer - "nurture".  Something, in our culture, is teaching us to be more violent than others.  What could it be?  How do we change it?

First off, cg, allow me to acknowledge that I will not be able to articulate my feelings and thots about this matter as well as you have done. I'll take a stab with a few answers followed by a question that contributes to those answers.

I honestly believe that our younger generations have been brought up on violent games since the 1980s and 1990s. Lack of discipline and bad parenting added along with that has bred little to no respect for others. Then, since BushCo, we've become a culture of non stop military conflicts/wars, in which the news of us chasing bad guys with all sorts of weapons abroad feels just right to those young guns from crib to 21 yrs. Stuck in the middle of those young hormones per individual lurks a strong emotion .... ANGER. What usually follows anger is 'get even' no matter the level of which or whom that 'get even' sets out to settle. We've been kickin' ass for so long at those we've determined wrong for this world, that it all kinda feels like it's set in stone. Young minds will certainly adhere to that 'get even' attitude wherever they choose and decide anymore. Tv makes sure that we/they won't forget just how pizzed off we all are.

My question is this. We both know that gun violence has been around since ..... guns. We also know that since man, aggression and violence has always been there too. What we don't know is just how much, based on ratio, such aggression and violence has existed compared to modern day aggression and violence. I know for me, it feels like it's increased greatly, since I was a youngster. That's saying a lot for those of us who lived thru 'Nam .... and our very divided country. So, have we entered a kill zone on steroids in a civilized society today? Or, was it just as killable before and after we were born compared to this virgin 21st century?

 

[hoosier88]

Yah.  It'll probably take federal laws, overriding state & local laws, to set up so that only individuals who take gun safety courses & pass, can purchase/own rifles &/or handguns.  Along the way, I'd like to outlaw semi-automatic copies of military weapons:  M-16s, Kalishnikovs, submachine guns - the lot (it's too easy to swap out the semi-auto action & make them full automatic.  The parts & instructions to convert them used to circulate freely @ gunshows.)

Probably a federal license, renewable like a drivers license every four years, & after age 65 or so (sooner, if medically indicated), good for two years.  Provisions to pull license upon conviction of domestic abuse, felony, assault with deadly weapon, etc.  We can tinker with the exact charges that are disqualifying.

We should probably look @ withholding license for serious mental or drug abuse or alcohol, anger management problems.  Those tend to manifest as domestic abuse, disturbing the peace, arrests for drunk & disorderly, for DUI, for drug intoxication.  We should probably include guidelines for those behaviors too - so many & your license is pulled, or never issued.

This is all very much an uphill political battle.  But what else can we do?

[steelydan]

hoosier88, I think you are on the right road. It is uphill but we still need to do something. Our vote is probably the starting point and I can't get it out of my head that women (and minorities) are going to have to play a very important role in how we make the decisions and the future of our country. We still live in a place where mostly older white men are calling the shots. Look at the make up of our Congress. Look at the make up of the Trump administration and his supporters. Look at the make up of the NRA. It's not hard to understand why decision after decision is being made that really do not reflect what I believe to be in the best interests of most Americans. It's a winding uphill road but in order to get to the top we need better decision making by our truly Best and Brightest. We have to get them in the right positions to make the call. That's what we can do now... Down the road, down another winding uphill road there will be many more tough decisions to be made. But, I believe this has been happening long before video games and even before the Vietnam War. We've practically been in non stop military conflicts since WW2. Television in the 50's and 60's was dominated primarily by Western cowboy shows and shows. GUN SHOWS. We won't change things overnight but we need the dawn of a new day before the bloodshed gets too much worse.

[countryguy]

I hadn't thought of the influence video games have had, but you're right -- it's potentially about the biggest factor of all.  Ever since "Mortal Combat" came out, gaming programmers have seemingly competed to see who can come up with the most graphic and realistic violence.  Our children have been exposed - nay, inundated - with such graphic depictions since early childhood -- when they were most impressionable.  It's not much of a stretch, to imagine how many of them have become inured to such violence.  After all, it just looks like a "harmless" video game --- doesn't it?

Add to that, a well-established expectation of instant gratification that not only the younger generation has, which results in instant, knee-jerk reactions to even minor perceived offenses.  We've seen historical examples of this, from our national "leaders", in recent years -- especially the current crop of them.  The idea of taking even a little time to consider whether we should really be offended, or how offended we should be, and what would be an appropriate response, is, these days, perceived as weakness.  And, in the macho, testosterone-fueled view of the extreme right, such a thing is just, plain unimaginable.

The Trump administration wants to focus solely on mental illness.  Yes, it's true that individuals with emotional problems shouldn't have access to military weapons, but it's actually unlikely that such efforts would be very effective.  Unless a person has been committed to a mental institution by a court, any treatment he/she has otherwise received, is protected by doctor-patient confidentiality.  To merely state that anyone who has received psychological counseling is dangerous, not only is untrue, but it would probably disqualify and brand 1/2 to 3/4 of our adult population -- including myself.  And, it would, no doubt, have the effect of discouraging people who need counseling, from seeking it, and risk being labeled as some kind of a nutcase.

[A159]

  After all, it just looks like a "harmless" video game --- doesn't it?

It does .... games that deeply form violent impressions/intents on very formable brains.

The Trump administration wants to focus solely on mental illness.  Yes, it's true that individuals with emotional problems shouldn't have access to military weapons, but it's actually unlikely that such efforts would be very effective.  Unless a person has been committed to a mental institution by a court, any treatment he/she has otherwise received, is protected by doctor-patient confidentiality.  To merely state that anyone who has received psychological counseling is dangerous, not only is untrue, but it would probably disqualify and brand 1/2 to 3/4 of our adult population -- including myself.  And, it would, no doubt, have the effect of discouraging people who need counseling, from seeking it, and risk being labeled as some kind of a nutcase.

That's a great point. However, I truly feel that many younger ppl may feel extremely slighted if they lose their support system. I guess that's where I see any mental help that they could seek might help them to solve, in part or fully, any emptiness inside of them. It seems that our modern day shooters are with having a really crappy home life or school. Bullies have always been a major problem with some kids. It just seems like there's no other way out of their situation(s) outside them using lethal firearms. To go out with a blaze of glory. To them, it's almost romantic. Teens and those yet not 30 yrs old have nothing else to lose, so they shock the world with their actions of mass bloodshed.

For starters,  restricting the sell of semi automatics has merit. I think that all sales of firearms should be prohibited to anyone under 30 yrs of age. I now say that because from what I've been hearing these last couple of days on talking head programs is that the millennials are wanting all guns banned. So, if they are willing to make that sacrifice voluntarily, I say go ahead and prrohibit the sale of firearms to under 30. At least allow more mature minds to make a choice IF they want a firearm once 30. Hopefully by the time a youngster reaches 18 and 21, they've been greatly educated about what firearms has done and will continue to do in the hands of immature/unstable minds who have been greatly influenced by violent games/tv shows and our constant desire collectively to march off to wars. I'm afraid that we can only do so much to stop death by firearms. What we should hope for at this point is to greatly reduce such death by firearms. If we could reduce this by at least 60% in the next 10 yrs, that's prob something that could be considered wonderful (don't forget how many firearms are already out there now ..... that eventually reaches the wrong hands). Kinda like if we could reduce our military footprint abroad at the same rate in the next 10 yrs being pretty darn good! What we're asking here is for good common sense to finally take hold. Will it?

[countryguy]

The really sorry part of this whole situation, is what it says about our basic values, as a society.  More and more, it would seem that higher and higher numbers of people just don't value life, as much as we used to.  Nowadays, the killers don't, really, care who they kill -- they just shoot into the crowd, killing people at random.  It seems that so much of the violence we hear about, lately, is randomly directed.  From the road rage, to the sports celebration riots, to the mass killings -- just being in the wrong place, and being handy, is enough to put one in danger.

Is our society becoming so jaded, so accustomed to violence, that the very value of human life is becoming less and less, to many of us?

[A159]

Is our society becoming so jaded, so accustomed to violence, that the very value of human life is becoming less and less, to many of us?

YES!!

Even as we rack our brains to find solutions I don't think we will. But, in case in my wildest dreams a solution were to be found that eliminated death/injury by weapons I have to then ask this. How many other means will be used to harm others?

[countryguy]

The realist in me says there will always be war and killing -- there has been, ever since Gub discovered that he could smash Mag's head, with a rock, and take the rest of the mastodon's carcass for himself (or when Cain brained Abel, if that's the story you believe).

The idealist in me says it doesn't have to be that way.  It says that man has the intellectual capacity to overcome his base instincts.  Unfortunately, however, I haven't seen enough evidence of that happening, to give me a hell of a lot of hope.  But, that doesn't mean we should stop trying.  To me, doing so would be giving up our right to call ourselves any kind of a "higher form of life".  And, as long as I have any life in me, I'll keep trying my little bit, to make mankind a better species than a dog, or a pig.  I have to be able to live with myself.

I have no idea how some of the other people can do that.

[hoosier88]

Just so.  Civilized people have to carry on as if our behavior made a difference.  We need to propagate our values - family, community, religion, humanism, a healthy regard for the Other, civilization, music, books, ideas, art.  A government responsive to the will of the people - the voters who renew the legislators & president on a periodic basis.  Otherwise, human organizations being what they are - if it's moving forward, it'll either stagnate or begin moving backwards.  We've come a long way - too far to start backsliding now. 

[A159]

I also agree with the last two posts that even though there's little indication that we'll collectively find our good moral sense to stop hurting others, we should never let go the idea to prevent it.

A baby step is being made by lawmakers to better our lives since this particular mass killing. AR-15s, once introduced and passed, are to be prohibited/sold to anyone under 21. It's a start.

I am sadly wondering when, in the future, will our shocked conversations turn to an uptick of killings by knives, blunt objects and the killer(s)'s hands? There might be a chance that this young generation will lead the way to a more effective education and awareness to all of this insanity. It will take that .... from the crib into adulthood. Right now, it's staying the course.